DADT trial, day 2 highlights. This will be long, sorry. I mainly
focus on Stephen Vossler's testimony, perhaps too much of it. An
actual soldier, who served with actual gay people in the actual army.
From: http://online.logcabin.org/day-2-vol-ii.pdf
MR. GARDNER = defense atty
Q. = Ms. Myers, plaintiff's atty
A. = STEPHEN VOSSLER, plaintiff witness,
Korean language specialist, testifying on what it was like sharing
quarters with another Korean language specialist (Derek Thomas)
who was undergoing discharge proceeding under DADT.
10:58
Q. And during the time that you lived with Mr. Thomas, was he
in the process of being discharged under "Don't Ask, Don't
Tell"?
A. Yes. When I moved into the room that he was already
occupying, he was already in the process of being discharged.
Q. And during that process, about how long did you live with
Mr. Thomas?
A. About nine months.
Q. During the time that you lived with Mr. Thomas, did you
find that he, in your experience, was doing well as a soldier?
MR. GARDNER: Objection. Leading.
THE COURT: Overruled.
You may answer.
THE WITNESS: I noticed that Derek wasn't -- just
generally speaking, wasn't doing well. I thought it was very
difficult on him, because he was such a talented soldier. He
had graduated the Korean basic course. He graduated very well.
He certainly passed his course, which is difficult. He was also very
good at the physical training portion of being a soldier. He was also
very skilled at some of the other type of tasks while he was there. He
volunteered to be a trainer of other soldiers and taught them some
basic soldiering skills. And he was very proficient at all of that.
And during the discharge process, he was doing day-to-day duties that
consisted more of things that would generally be reserved for somebody
who was either being punished or was being discharged because they
couldn't meet the requirements for being a soldier, whether it be they
weren't technically or tactically proficient enough or they couldn't
pass the physical fitness test. And he was none of those things. He
was, generally speaking, a very good soldier, an above-average
soldier, and was just doing things that -- he was separated from the
rest of the unit, doing things that he was overqualified for.
...
11:02
Q. And during the time that you were living with him, you
said that Mr. Thomas was not participating with his unit any
longer; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And in your view, what does it mean if a soldier is not
allowed to participate with his unit?
A. Well, that generally means that he or she is a bad
soldier.
Q. Is that what you thought of Mr. Thomas?
A. Initially, yes.
Q. And why did you think that?
A. Well, I guess the logic was that if the Army saw fit to pull him
apart from the rest of the unit in terms of day-to-day duty, then it
must be just.
...
11:06
Q. Is it your understanding that Mr. Thomas was overqualified
for the jobs that he was doing during the time he was being
discharged under "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?
A. He was -- yeah, he was obviously overqualified for his
tasks. I mean, in order to even have an opportunity to train
for the job that he was trained for, you have to be quite
exceptional.
Q. Did you have any problems living with Mr. Thomas?
A. I did not. It was awkward at first, but that passed.
Q. And why was it awkward at first when you started living
with Mr. Thomas?
A. I was not comfortable being in such close proximity to
somebody who was gay, a gay man. That was something that I had
never experienced up until that point. And I guess I had it in
my head that that would be something that I would constantly
have to battle, in that he would be coming onto me or -- I was
just worried that it would be a very sort of tense living situation.
Q. Was it a tense living situation?
A. No, it was not.
Q. Did any of your concerns about how Mr. Thomas might behave
come to pass?
A. Other than having to listen to a little bit more Cher than
I would normally choose to do, no. It was actually a pretty
great living situation.
LOL - re: Cher reference :)
Q. And why was it a pretty great living situation?
A. He was a very good roommate. He was very courteous. If I
was sleeping or just relaxing or something when he came back
late, he would leave the lights off. He's very quiet; he's
very clean. He would bring friends over. We would all hang
out. We'd go out to dinner. It was a good friendship. It was
a good living situation.
...
11:10
Q. Did you develop close friendships with other people while
you were at the Defense Language Institute?
A. Yes. I developed a lot of close friendships while I was
there.
Q. Was one of those close relationships with Specialist
Jarrod Chlapowski?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. What were some of Specialist Chlapowski's characteristics
that created the foundation for your friendship with him?
A. We were very similar in sort of our outlook on the
military. We were both young men, very competitive, very
physically fit; and we spent time on our own sort of
cultivating those skills. We tried to be the top of our class.
We studied very hard. We worked very hard, at our language, at
our soldiering skills. We were fellow nerds. We would read
books and discuss things. I was a science fiction guy; he was
a fantasy guy. And we shared a lot of the same personal
interests. They weren't exactly the same, but they were close
enough to interest us, but not so far apart that we were
disinterested.
Q. And what language was Specialist Chlapowski studying?
A. He was also a Korean language student.
Q. And to circle back quickly, during the time that you lived
with Mr. Thomas, did you ever have any problems sharing a
bathroom or shower space with him?
A. I did not have any problems.
Q. During the time that you became friends with
Specialist Chlapowski, did you learn anything else of interest
about him?
A. Yes. At one point his roommate showed me a picture of Jarrod and
another man standing very close to each other on a beach, and he said,
Did you know that Jarrod was gay?
Q. How did you react to that information about Mr. Chlapowski's sexual
orientation?
A. I thought it was -- I just thought it was kind of a crazy
story that his roommate made up, because, in my mind, there was
no way that Jarrod could be gay. So I just -- I didn't dismiss
it in terms of I just forgot about it, but I did dismiss it in
terms of its point. I didn't think that Jarrod was gay. And
then later in the week, when I confronted Jarrod about it, I
didn't ask him, Hey, are you gay; I said, Hey, can you believe
this crazy story your roommate told me; he said that you were
gay; isn't that crazy?
Q. And why didn't you think Specialist Chlapowski could be
homosexual?
A. Up until that point, I still held some very stereotyping
beliefs about gays and lesbians. I thought that -- whereas
Derek Thomas sort of fit the bill, so to speak, he was very
flamboyant, very effeminate, Jarrod was quite the opposite. He
was very masculine, very sort of centered. He's a very sort of
mellow personality, very professional, very calm.
...
Q. When you talked to Specialist Chlapowski about his sexual
orientation, what was his reaction?
THE WITNESS: He was obviously very uncomfortable. I
think he was probably scared, maybe a little embarrassed. I
don't really know what his emotions were. But he was obviously
very uncomfortable. And rather than denying it, rather than
saying, No, I'm not gay; ha ha, that is a very funny story, he
said, Yeah, I am gay; is that a problem?
Q. And how did his disclosure of his sexual orientation make
you feel?
A. Well, it was awkward at first. It was something that I
didn't expect, and I was kind of in disbelief, because I didn't
think it would be possible for me to cultivate a friendship
with a gay man.
Q. Did that prove to be not the case?
A. Yeah, that's definitely not the case. We're very good
friends.
...
11:41
Q. And why have you spoken out against "Don't Ask, Don't
Tell" and devoted so much time to that issue?
A. In my opinion, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is -- it's a very
discriminatory law, and I've watched it have some pretty grave
effects on people. It was very difficult on my friend Derek.
Jarrod always wanted to make a career out of the military, and
he got out. And it just, in my opinion, doesn't seem in line
with American values. It's very discriminatory, and I don't
understand how it's a law in my country.
I'll stop here, otherwise you might as well just read the PDF
yourself. And you really should, they end up serving together for some time and remain good
friends.
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