Note: This transcript was clearly done by someone else as the format
is a little different (and harder to deal with). There may be some
(more :) formatting errors, sorry. There are also no apparent
timestamps in this volume. This was the last volume of day 2.
From: http://online.logcabin.org/day-2-vol-iii.pdf
MR. SIMPSON, Defense atty.
Q. = Ms. Feldman, plaintiff atty.
A. = ELIZABETH HILLMAN, Ph.D., PLAINTIFF'S WITNESS, SWORN
Currently a professor of law, University of California
Hastings College of law. [Served in the USAF, a space
operations officer and as a strategic analyst in Denver,
later posted to Cheyenne Mountain Air Force Base in Colorado Springs
as an orbital analyst related to the Strategic Defense Initiative.]
Testimony regarding her Masters thesis...
Q. And did any part of your master's thesis relate to the issue of
gays and lesbians in the military?
A. It did.
Q. How did it relate to gays and lesbians in the military?
A. One of the primary concerns by the -- the officers and
civilians who were deciding about women's military uniforms
was making sure women did not appear too mannish, that they
look like men in uniform. And this was -- this was
reflected in the minutes of the boards that met and the
committees and also in the designers' notes as they did
this. And it was -- it was very difficult for the designers
to come up with acceptably feminine uniforms within the
confines of a -- of the -- the functional requirements of
those uniforms.
So what I wrote about in part was how the fear of women looking like
men, which is very closely related to the fear of women being
lesbians, shaped the design of women's military uniforms.
...
Q. How long were you employed at the Air Force Academy?
A. About two years.
Q. Why did you decide to leave the Air Force Academy?
A. Because I realized I was a lesbian and that I couldn't
stay in the Air Force and still maintain the standards of
professionalism that I felt obliged to maintain.
Q. And what do mean by that, you felt that you couldn't
maintain the standards of professionalism?
A. Every day when I walked past the elevator in -- on the
sixth floor of the building where my office was, I saw a
sign that said "Academy core values: Integrity first,
service before self, excellence in all we do." And I felt that I
couldn't be -- I couldn't maintain those values and not -- not be open
about my sexual orientation.
Q. Do you feel that "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" prevented you
from remaining a teacher at the Air Force Academy?
MR. SIMPSON: Objection, your Honor. Leading.
THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
...
After testimony certifying her an expert in military law and justice.
Q. Can you describe the role of women in the U.S. military
following the end of the draft and moving into the
all-voluntary force?
A. Women rescued the all-volunteer force. Their quality
indicators were higher than the men who enlisted in those
first years without a draft. Women gradually moved into an
increasing number of military occupations, and they also
gradually moved up the promotion chain and were appointed
and earned higher levels of military service and control.
The restriction on women's ability to command men was
lifted, and the rules regarding women not being permitted in
certain jobs were lifted, especially in the 1990s.
...
Q. Professor Hillman, based on your research, how has
"Don't Ask, Don't Tell" impacted women in the military?
A. Much more than it has impacted men in the military.
The reason for that is what we just talked about. The
military is a non-traditional career choice for women, and
the appearance of women in military uniform is more
masculine than the appearance of women in many other
professions. For women to join a nontraditional masculine
profession, they are automatically suspect to accusations
that they don't like men, that they wish to be men, that
they are, in fact, lesbians. So women are vulnerable to
charges of lesbianism in a way that men in the military are
not.
Q. And have you studied the percentage of women that have
been discharged under "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?
A. Yes.
Q. What percentage of women are discharged from the
military compared to the percentage of total women in the
military?
A. It's two to three times as high as the men who are
discharged. In other words, women are 15 percent of the
total force. Women are, perhaps, 30 percent of the
discharges. But I will say those discharge figures don't
represent the full impact, the disproportionate impact, of
that policy on service women. Because in many ways the
harassment and derision that is associated with accusations
of lesbianism doesn't show up in the actual discharge
figures for the policy itself.
...
Q. You mentioned "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" before. Do you
believe that "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" furthers the incident
of sexual harassment against women in the military?
A. Yes.
Q. Why do you believe that's the case?
A. Because it makes it more difficult for women to rebuff
sexual advances of men. Because it makes lesbian-baiting
possible because of the ban on women's open service by women
who might be lesbians and because it creates a hierarchy of
sexual orientation that clearly privileges heterosexuality
over homosexuality.
Q. Can you describe or explain for the court what
lesbian-baiting is?
A. When a women is accused of being a lesbian and is
therefore subject to discharge and censure under the policy.
Q. And you talked about a hierarchy of sexual orientation.
Can you explain what you meant by that?
A. Well, if a wom[a]n didn't have to fear being accused of
being homosexual, then there wouldn't be this potential for
harassment and abuse within the confines of a military
workplace.
...
Q. And why does "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" disproportionately
impact African-American women?
A. That answer is not extant in the literature. But the scholars who
study this surmise that it is because African-American women in many
different workplaces who are in positions of authority are more likely
to be challenged, and they are more likely to be challenged sexually,
in particular. So they are in an even more vulnerable position than
non-African-American female service members.
Followed by cross examination by defense (US Government)
Q. = MR. SIMPSON, defense atty
A. = ELIZABETH HILLMAN, Ph.D., PLAINTIFF'S WITNESS, SWORN
...
Q. Now, I believe you testified regarding "lesbian
baiting."
Are you familiar, Professor, with the hearings
before Congress that occurred before "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"
was enacted?
A. Yes.
Q. And are you aware that Judith Stiehm provided testimony
regarding this phenomenon that you've called lesbian
baiting?
A. Yes. And no one listened to her.
Q. Nevertheless, that testimony is included within the legislative
record; correct?
A. Yes. A voice in the wilderness. [Emphasis added]
...
Q. Professor, are you aware that the Department of Defense
has recently issued new regulations regarding "Don't Ask,
Don't Tell"?
A. Yes.
Q. Those regulations -- is it true, that those regulations
limit what constitutes credible evidence of homosexual
conduct?
A. Yes.
Q. Those regulations -- is it true, that those regulations
limit what constitutes credible evidence of homosexual
conduct?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you agree that those regulations make more
difficult the use of lesbian baiting to discharge a female
service member?
A. They might, yes.
Q. Would you agree, Professor, that most discharges under
"Don't Ask, Don't Tell" result from a statement?
A. Yes.
Q. Maybe I should go back a little bit on that. This
charge under "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" fall either within one
caused by a statement or one caused by conduct, and act;
correct?
A. Yes, although there is a very blurred distinction
between statement and conduct. I do know that the numbers
of discharges that the government attributes to statements
of sexual orientation accounts for the lion's share of
discharges under the policy.
Q. Do you know what that percentage is?
A. I believe it's upwards of three-quarters.
Q. That are attributable to statements?
A. Yes.
Really?! Statements?, would be nice to know the breakdown
between self-statements and 3rd party statements.
What follows was lots of evidence related arguments, time discussions, etc. Court adjourned
at 3:54 p.m
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